Two tangentially related bits of meta

[oudeteron]

The grumpy meta goes out of the way first: you know what's irritating? That even though big fandom comms like fanficrants seem to have reached a consensus in that warning for slash is offensive, the practice is still so prevalent. More insidious still is when people who label themselves as fans of the gay start talking about how slash "corrupted" them because it's just so edgy, I mean, look at these guys not being 100% straight! Plain amazing, I say. /sarcasm

I'm venting because I'm well past my stretch of patience with the idea of slash (or femslash, same "logic" would apply) as some quirky little kink. I realize it's not my place to police why people like whatever they like, but nor do (general) you get to police what slash is, especially if you insist on billing it as some "corrupting influence". Fandom is huge, after all, and more diverse than the mainstream stereotype would suggest. Some of us write what's labelled as slash for the characters, and if we also write porn we see it as a nice bonus. Some of us write slash and other queer fic because we like the opportunity to portray characters as not all cis heterosexuals for once. Still others are into this slash thing for different reasons, and that's all well and good! We can get along, whatever our respective motives are.

But. Look here: the exoticizing attitude is problematic. It bothers me because I'm a genderqueer pansexual guy and I kind of care about this equal representation thing. I'm not in this for the lulz or whatever. Therefore, if (general) you alternate between objectifying and warning for people like me (or somewhat like me), I will judge you. And I won't feel even slightly sorry.

(This isn't to say that all straight people who like slash act that way, but that much should be obvious.)

*

Moving on! I've had some meta sitting around for a while, and unlike the above rant this is actually fun. It's my favourite part of this post, in fact, but I'll cut it because it's fandom-specific. Not to mention it got long.
*Note: I'll be referring to Big Boss by the fandom moniker "BB" throughout for consistency, assuming if you read this you'll know up to which point he was known as Snake.

Let's start this off with something I wonder: I wonder why this pairing isn't more popular. I'd understand if the idea were completely out of left field, but that's not the case either given the entire MGS series would crumble without the relationship - however you may interpret it - between these two characters. It's one of the threads going from the beginning (the chronological, in-universe beginning) right down to where MGS4 ends. That's 1964 to 2014, and let's not forget MGS3 picks up in 1964 with FOX already established. (If the meme of Big Boss encompasses the Solid Snake arc, which turns out to have only ever been one part of the whole by MGS4, you can't do without setting Big Boss in relation to the other key figures who directly shape the outcome: Ocelot, EVA and Zero. Different as these three may be, they share BB as the main motivator for their actions - and considering how ruthlessly insane and ultimately self-destructive some of these actions are, it's important what or who they did it all for. Zero is more difficult to redeem than the other two for many reasons, but let's leave that aside for now.)

When I was first exposed to MGS3, like everyone else I was blinded by Ocelot (the BB/Ocelot dynamic being another prominent thread that holds the series together). The second time around, what smacked me in the face was the huge quantity of radio banter between BB and his support team. Now, I can't claim insider knowledge of the special forces, but what struck me about the BB/Zero exchanges was how informal they were. The only traces of a chain of command being in place show when BB refers to Zero by rank, and for that we don't even know whether it's what he'd always do, or whether he's simply being consistent with the policy of the current mission. What's obvious is that, apart from BB sticking to the formal address and taking orders as he's supposed to, their interaction is far removed from the typical superior-subordinate kind. Hell, they reminisce about how long they'd known each other, banter about tea vs. coffee, discuss nightmares, quote unprompted song lyrics ("dream a little dream", anyone?), and the list goes on. Either they're complete n00bs who can't approach a top-secret mission professionally (which we know they're not) or this indicates they are closer than the circumstances would lead one to expect.

The above is a reason to see them as equals, and I can't help but find that fascinating given the military framework in which they operate. (Caveat: they do things Zero's way in FOX, not just well but perfectly, so the unit as a whole might've just been atypical; caveat 2: never been in the special forces BUT NEITHER HAS KOJIMA. I think.) If there are inequalities between them as well, these would be more subtle. I don't think age by itself plays much of a role in this sense because there are so many more important factors here besides that random fact. A real imbalance, I think, would be caused more by their differing life experience. Canon doesn't say much about Zero's backstory before MGS3, but I wouldn't be surprised if he'd had the classic upper-class civilian British education, broadening his horizons quite a lot. Still without clear canon support, I assume he got his rank in WWII (serving alongside The Boss and presumably her Cobras; I want a game of this so bad), and add the SAS for that extra touch of exclusiveness! (This also makes the HALO jump at the beginning of MGS3 a delightful bit of factoid-geekery.) At the same time, he has an apparent history in the British intelligence. (There's one conversation that implies he would've been its head at one point, and that's where his codename comes from: the initial O to 0, hence Zero. I'm still not sure if he's actually saying "Hey, I used to be head of the SIS!" but it's clear he was the boss of some organization.) Zero also calls himself "the primogenitor of the solo sneaking mission" at one point, even though BB is the one carrying it out by the time we hear about this. On the whole, there seems to be lot of inventing, travelling, organizing and negotiating in both his past and present. He's resourceful enough to run his own special unit in another country. And he's not naive in any way, which is telling. (Example - BB: "You're saying I can trust her?" | Zero: "I'm saying that the chance she'll betray you is low.")

You have to admit, that's a lot of talents.

BB doesn't have that advantage. When Zero complains to him that "American soldiers rely too much on ready-made equipment", that illustrates the difference pretty well. The problem is that BB himself is "ready-made". We don't know much about his childhood, but looking at how he became The Boss's apprentice at 15, a few years later he was an atomic test subject, then in the early '60s he would've been sent to Vietnam (hi Python!), and finally I suppose Zero picked him up for being such a skilled operative, it's obvious that he'd never known much else. He'd been groomed for the battlefield, and we all know the unfortunate connotations this has in Metal Gear. He'd spent his entire youth being one-purpose, which just makes him an awesome spy/soldier but not much else as far as qualifications go. Where Zero would've been broadening his horizons, BB was being consciously used. Even the respect-commanding title "Big Boss" is just something he's given, never mind that it's for an assassination he'd had to perform against his will without even knowing its ultimate purpose.

As we know, he doesn't stay a follower forever - but when, finally, Big Boss becomes a leader in his own right, whatever favourable relationship he'd had with Zero is down the drain. (To be fair, if I found myself cloned without my consent and duped by the very same organization that was supposed to stand against that kind of manipulation, I'd walk out too.) I tend to assume the cloning is when the Patriots' fascination with BB (or was that hero-worship?) takes a turn for the creepy, but it's implied there had been tensions earlier. This makes me suspect that BB was a lot more comfortable for Zero to have around when he was content to be an associate, rather than being in the management. Which is ironic, considering that in MGS3 when they are kept in a formal structure there is hardly any mutually acknowledged indication of it. (And notice how Zero probably wasn't planning world domination yet, since FOX first takes this mission to justify its continued existence - and BB is to physically accomplish the job.)

Back in MGS3, are they equal? It would be odd for Zero not to be aware of the advantage he has, but I think he'd like them to be. That's why we get so much friendly banter, Actual Personal Concern (remember that bit at the end of the Virtuous Mission when all he cares about is that BB tend to his injuries now), and even an admission that how spies end up when discovered makes him "want to cry". No, seriously, would you trumpet that during a mission you were leading? Didn't think so. That crosses so many boundaries I don't even.

There's a whole host of things to do with the development post-Portable Ops and when things really go sour, but I'm sticking to the MGS3 era and thereabouts for now. The rest is a story for another time, and a damn depressing one.

>CONTINUE

Why do I even like Zero? Most of the fandom seems to have decided he's a meanieface; for my part, I'm not too big on systems, and wasn't the whole System power abuse his doing? Just, you know, for starters.

I guess the answer is that black-and-white characters are not exactly fun. While Zero might seem more bad than good from some points of view, I'll go with the cliché this once and say that power corrupts. It's clear already in MGS3 that he's not satisfied with the status quo, which in itself seems rather noble - it's just that at some point, he starts going spectacularly badly about fixing it. Again, I'm leaving that era for another time and instead focus on what gave me a reason to start liking him. In contrast to the mess later on, there's also For Your Consideration:

--Zero was the only one not buying into prejudice and employing Sigint, and keeping him on the job when he turned out to be a troublemaker (but still a brilliant tech guy). I'm sure this could be seen as a contrast between the racism typical of America at the time, which someone from the UK wouldn't have been conditioned to - but while that could be an interesting perspective, I wouldn't discount Zero's personality. (Sigint: "The Major, though, he doesn't care about what colour you are. I've never met anyone like him before. He's...different, you know?" | BB: "Oh, yeah, I know.")

--He's likeable. Look at how in FOX, he doesn't insist on the others bowing down to his presence just because they're technically his subordinates. (BB gets the extra-familiar treatment, but both Para-Medic and Sigint are free to debate and even tease a bit.) Again, isn't that a progressive working etiquette?

--Finally, I like the occasional poke at the British stereotype as much as anyone else ("My tea is gone! Who drank it? How am I supposed to have teatime without tea?!" "They're not cookies, they're scones."), but do I really need to point out that British =/= conservative? He's classy, yes, but this is also the guy who claims to have been abducted by a UFO. And who has no qualms about describing how they disposed of bodily wastes back in the day in a casual conversation. And who's an unabashed James Bond geek (I don't even like Bond and I find this cute). Basically, he's not a one-dimensional caricature, and that's good. Why not apply that to his later actions as well - not to gloss over them, but to understand?

And that's my discourse on the nature of two fictional characters for today. Fun times. Thoughts?

Wait, not yet. Time for references, AKA videos of my favourite radio moments (with timestamps for the ones in which the relevant part doesn't start at the beginning of the vid itself, although there's no harm in just watching it all!).

Beyond the Name (Right at the start - apart from what I mentioned about "Zero" earlier, I see what you did there, Kojima, giving him the same birth year as the first British Intelligence outfit. This vid is also full of awesomeness with Sigint as an added bonus, including the box and mask convos.)

"USE A CIGAR, YOU WHINY YANK" (Starts at 3:30; also their freak-out over BB falling into the cave is hilarious.)

After the Nightmare (The Zero part starts at 4:04, but all the convos in this are hilarious. It's just that the Zero bit is funny and rather touching in more ways than one).

"I'll be your eyes" (First convo from 5:38 on, notice how Zero just tells BB that. Can you share personal feelings, even on the battlefield? Directly after that, we get a counselling session after BB surfaces from The Sorrow's river, which starts out all nice and helpful until Zero gets worried enough to ask Para-Medic. THEN CUE STUTTERING. If I went on about their unusual openness before, these two exchanges illustrate it nicely. At 5:30 comes the UFO comment to complete the show.)

"What do I do if I meet that guy?" (Snake, Zero doesn't like you looking like someone else. >8U But seriously, what I always imagine here is him watching BB beat poor Raikov up and, uh, enjoying himself. Kinky.)

Jealous of Ocelot? (Starts at 5:30. It's a nice point for BB/Ocelot as well, obviously.)

Lots of history exposition that I just want to link because it's fascinating.

Stuff (The part with Sigint talking about the discrimination working in FOX saved him from is right at the start; also lots of individual fun conversations throughout. The lulz really start at 7:44 and go on right to the end. "...Lighten up.")

Never mind The Boss defected, just patch yourself up OR ELSE.

The short classics: WHO DRANK ZERO'S TEA?! and "They're not cookies!" and Fantastic foresight with James Bond.

I could spam forever, but I'll stop now. AND THEN EVERYONE BREATHED A SIGH OF RELIEF.

Comments

[imagines.livejournal.com]

I don't have much spare time to read fic these days, so I have a long list of things that automatically disqualifies a fic from the list of "things I care about reading." Warning for slash? TOTALLY ONE OF THEM. Far too often, it signifies that the writer is not entirely comfortable with writing queer characters/ queerness in general, and I just don't have time for that.

I used to do it, though. [eta for clarity: I used to warn for slash & talk about slash having "corrupted" me.] Wish I hadn't—would love to pretend I didn't—but yeah. :/ Way back when I was still up on my hyper-religious high horse, before the gigantic smackdown I got by way of realizing I was ALL KINDS OF QUEER. I'm forever grateful that fandom ripped apart everything I thought was true and taught me how to be a better person. I DID IT, THE REST OF [GENERAL] YOU CAN DO IT TOO >(

[oudeteron.livejournal.com]

Seconding your first paragraph like burning.

And, yeah, I actually know what you mean even though I don't come from a religious background - that "corrupting" discourse used to be pretty standard in some fandoms. But similarly to your situation, fandom ended up providing leverage for me to question the sort of unthinking assumptions I used to take for granted, as well as accept that I didn't fit them. Wonder if that's the standard narrative now. XD

I DID IT, THE REST OF [GENERAL] YOU CAN DO IT TOO >(
<3

[missteacakes.livejournal.com]

I actually saw a het warning mixed in the Alexander fandom a while back. 'Course, I'm a jerk and feel that warnings in general are for wusses (the pairing list, rating, and summary are all that should be needed.)

[cowgirlmaxwell.livejournal.com]

I'm a jerk and feel that warnings in general are for wusses (the pairing list, rating, and summary are all that should be needed.)

Oh god, this. I can't be the only one sick to death of WARNING: RAPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! all over fics that only have an implicit mention of rape to do with a character's backstory that was already established in canon.
If someone is triggered so badly by mentions of rape that they can't deal with something like that, I can't fathom why they'd be involved in a fandom where it's part of the canon.
Not to say that people who get triggered by rape/rape victims should FVCK OFF FROM FANDOM or anything stupid like that, it's just that nothing gets me fired up more than someone complaining about a trigger in a fanwork whilst the trigger is in the fandom's canon.
.....And if anyone's going to complain about my examples, rape was the first significant trigger that came to mind.

[missteacakes.livejournal.com]

Even if it isn't canon, if an author says in their summary that the story is angst, be prepared for something depressing; same for any other trigger. I'm generally tired of people getting upset about what other people write.

[cowgirlmaxwell.livejournal.com]

Well, to be perfectly honest, fics labeled 'WARNING: ANGST' are like a quality control warning for me, simply due to the sheer number of horrible and narmy fics labeled 'ANGST U GAIZ'

[thene]

whaaat, wow, no.

I honestly think you are speaking from too little information, so I'm going to suggest that you read this post. One of the many reasons the word 'angst' sucks is that it's very broad and could easily include your very favourite thing and also things that set you off into spirals of anxiety and depression.

No one is getting upset about what other people write, only about whether they're thoughtful about how they post.

[missteacakes.livejournal.com]

I know what the word 'angst' means, and quite frankly I dislike using it because I feel its meaning has been corrupted through overuse. Something can be deliciously depressing, and a person can love it, but the fact is that original word connotates a mixture of extreme fear, sadness, anxiety, guilt, etc. And is therefore, by definition, unhappy.

As for the statement about people getting upset about what people write, it ties back to my original comment about why I don't put warnings.

[thene]

...wait, what? Did you say that you think people who have trauma damage are 'wusses'? *sideeye* I guess I'm confused because I don't get called that very often.

You seem to be conflating 'unhappy' with 'people want to be warned', which isn't at all valid - there are lots of varieties of unhappy that no one is requesting warnings for, and most of those who do benefit from warnings only need them for a very limited range of things. People who need warnings are not trying to avoid unhappy fics. Just as an example, I have a friend who avoids deathfics because her brother died recently. She doesn't mind any other kinds of so-called angst and enjoys a lot of them, but being able to avoid deathfics helps her out a lot when it comes to mental health stuffs.

In any case, I'll say it again; no one is upset about what anyone else is writing, only about posting fail. I run a comm where anyone can post anything they want to but certain warnings are compulsory; this is pretty common and doesn't impinge on anyone's right to write & post whatever they like.

[missteacakes.livejournal.com]

WHOA! WHAT? NO! No, no, no. I was saying that a summary, rating, and pairing in a posting should be enough to know whether something is what you want to read. Of course, I'm assuming that people are able to write adequate summaries, which may not be the case...

I think that we might be thinking along different lines here. Using your example, deathfic falls under the definition, but is a brand that I tend to could be consider it's own group, too. I guess a lot depends on categorizing.

I suppose I will amend my previous statement about my policies: I don't put warnings on my own journal, but if posting elsewhere, I do respect the wishes of the mod. I'm not a complete asshole.

[oudeteron.livejournal.com]

Wait, what. My point was exactly that things like rape, torture, blood, gore, kidnapping and so on are legitimate warnings (you might choose not to warn for them but in most fic comms you're asked to), while "minority" sexualities and genders are not inherently warn-worthy and therefore shouldn't be treated as if they were on the same level.

[cowgirlmaxwell.livejournal.com]

I never got warnings for slash/femmeslash/het
I mean
Writers should be listing the pairing that the fic is written with, so putting a slash warning on 'Snake/Otacon' seems ridiculously redundant. If you're reading a fic from a fandom whose characters you don't even know, you brought it on yourself.

On the other hand, I don't think starting a shitstorm over something so little is particularly mature, and just adds to the 'Crazy Livejournal Feminist/Extreme PC User' stereotype. (This last part wasn't aimed at you, just a musing about LiveJournal in general)

[oudeteron.livejournal.com]

Well, there's a difference between "starting a shitstorm" and "pointing out some practice is wrong". Dismissing the issue as insignificant just means being unaware of the context and the consequences of endorsing prejudiced "warnings" in a culture that has long stigmatized any difference.

Also, just saying: if there's a stereotype about the people who care about this kind of thing, that says a lot more about the ones who came up with such a stereotype than the people the stereotype is about. I'll happily be a radical LJ queer if that's what it takes! :P

[thene]

Slash didn't corrupt me, slash fixed me; flipped that switch from 'other' to 'self', and you can't warn for that experience - it was a first-glance-in-the-mirror, primal recognition thing. Warning for it is banned on mgs_fanworks, but I don't haet those who warn in general - I suspect that they're mimicking something from whatever fan culture they started off at (probably the Pit) and they need to be gently taught better manners. (with a crowbar, maybe, or possibly not anything so old-fashioned).

Either Zero has a lot of talents, or Zero is a compulsive fantasist (your circuit's dead, is something wrong?) Pick one! Also, iirc he joined the CIA because The Boss asked him to?

I can't help but wonder if his career was meant to parallel that of James Bond, who was appointed a Navy Commander in WWII and then shifted over to Intelligence by the 1950s. JB grew up mostly in Switzerland (little-known factoid; JB is Scots-Swiss and in canon he pointedly identifies at one point as being not English), was orphaned in his teens and I think he never went to university; you can pretty much tell from Zero's accent that he went to an Oxbridge college and studied Greats, and I can't remember why I came up with this but I think he's an old-boy of Rugby Boy's School - anyway, I am not sure about his horizons being broad other than in the sense of the collective freedom/adventure experience a lot of young people had in WWII. (It would be so easy to invoke WWII gay culture if you ever wanted to. It's said that American leather culture was founded by gay soldiers with surplus motorbikes who, because they'd experienced freedom, didn't want to go home after being discharged. No idea how true that is).

Vietnam didn't start til after MGS3. iirc it is canon that BB and Python met in Korea; I think that at one point it was canon that BB had been in Vietnam at some point but I can't remember if that came from anything other than MG2 (in which we're told he met Frank in Vietnam - which has been retconned to Mozambique for no particular reason other than that MGS has this weird fixation with the Portuguese Colonial War?)

I'd like to call bullshit on the idea that someone in the UK in the 60s wasn't conditioned to racism. I think the US and the UK have tangibly different kinds of racism but Zero's refusal to participate in it would be a personal quirk, not a cultural one.

Just a theory, but I think one reason most people don't latch on to Zero is that he doesn't give us many emotional openings. (imo the biggest is in MGS4, when Eva describes BB as Zero's 'irreplaceable friend', and I think we see his back turned in the Shinkawa backdrop rightaround that moment.) A lot of fans go for moments of vulnerability, and Zero has none. There's also the fact that he's never 'on-set'; Codec conversations are amazing but the most popular MGS characters tend to be people who we see interacting with each other in significant ways.

It's interesting comparing this pairing with Snake/Campbell, which is a much more structured, less trusting relationship, and yet less epically fucked up.

TL;DR enough for LJ to split

[oudeteron.livejournal.com]

I don't haet on them either, if warning is just something they've picked up through a shifted usage of the term (it seems some people don't grasp that "warning = squick connotations" because of the archives that insist on using them as tags). But since fandom at large seems capable of re-evaluating its culture, I'd say it's a good opportunity to seize and educate. "Gently." XD (Speaking of which, I noticed there's been a fic posted to _fanworks recently that warns for slash in the header and it made me double-take.)

Anyway, finally someone picked my second fanrant to respond to - I was starting to think I shouldn't have merged them (which I probably shouldn't have in retrospect). Thank you. ;_;

My headcanon is that if The Boss worked with the SAS, they'd have sort of switched afterwards with Zero moving over to the CIA because she asked - and then semi-independent FOX would be the next logical step? It kind of looks like Zero's moving up to bigger and bigger organizations from MGS3 onwards. XD

Now I'll have to watch old-school James Bond to see if they have any direct parallels. But I like how MGS is always between intertextuality and IRL canon, e.g. with the 1909 thing (Zero is literally as old as the official British Intelligence, oh snap.)

you can pretty much tell from Zero's accent that he went to an Oxbridge college and studied Greats, and I can't remember why I came up with this but I think he's an old-boy of Rugby Boy's School
Yes, that's exactly what I meant! And I think that sort of edcuation would have been broad horizons compared to BB. Zero can afford to have "useless" knowledge because his education wasn't limited to the utilitarian from the start, but I don't suppose anyone ever thought to have BB study a dead language or focus on anything more than he immediately "needed" for his own survival. Hell, the fact alone that Zero almost certainly completed university education while BB got his calling to become a special forces agent at the ripe old age of fifteen is significant. We don't quite know why either of them went into their final line of work, but BB would've had less of a chance to decide for himself. Maybe the first unmediated decision he makes is the one to leave at the very end of MGS3.

It's said that American leather culture was founded by gay soldiers with surplus motorbikes who, because they'd experienced freedom, didn't want to go home after being discharged. No idea how true that is).
What the what, well brb researching!

Part II of TL;DR

[oudeteron.livejournal.com]

I don't know what to make of the Vietnam thing. The only way it makes sense to me to include it is going by what the MGS wiki-timeline says ["1961: The CIA begins to sponsor and train the Civilian Irregular Defense Groups (CIDG) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Irregular_Defense_Group) in the South Central Highlands of Vietnam, which is mainly composed of local defense operations, supported by a mobile support component made up primarily of Nung mercenaries called 'Mike Force.' Jack and Python are among the soldiers dispatched into Vietnam to participate in the mission until Python is severely wounded."]. I take it that BB and Python would have been sent there at some point (that's canon according to the pre-battle Python cutscene in MPO), but not yet specifically for the Vietnam war. Maybe. Frankly BB's early life frustrates me because it goes like this: N/A--N/A--The Boss becomes his mentor--ATOMIC TESTS SECRET MISSIONS WAIT HOW OLD IS HE--suddenly he's in FOX! How does all this even combine with "ten years of intensive training with The Boss up to 1959", did he get time off for Bikini Atoll or what? And then he was just okay, right back to the drill? (Well, wouldn't be surprising given the end of the Virtuous Mission, but still.)

(Fun fact, I cracked up at Fox being all "BB FIRST SAVED ME IN VIETNAM" in MG2, since playing it after MPO you know that's been retconned. I guess Kojima just wanted Vietnam somewhere and didn't have as many characters he could've applied that and Mozambique to back then.)

I'd like to call bullshit on the idea that someone in the UK in the 60s wasn't conditioned to racism. I think the US and the UK have tangibly different kinds of racism but Zero's refusal to participate in it would be a personal quirk, not a cultural one.
Yeah, good point. I'm a lot more inclined to see that as a personality thing as well. (Related to that, I wonder if BB's outrage when Sigint tells him about his hardships is that BB shares Zero's conviction, or that he's just had so little contact with mainstream US culture that he wouldn't have got the racist memo to begin with.)

Fff, your theory is probably right, particularly the "on-set/not on-set" bit. And the fact that there's nothing to make sure you get most of the radio convos in the game at all (so even if he might have vulnerable moments - "I'll be your eyes...makes me want to cry" - most people won't have come across them because they're not especially in-your-face). This is one of the reasons I want that bloody WWII game . It'd certainly mix up the perspective!

It's pretty striking how different Solid Snake's support team is from BB's. In the words of Master MG2 Miller: Less you invested in your operative, less you fuck up your relationship? XD



(I do apologize for the length and for my HTML fail.)

Re: Part II of TL;DR

[thene]

JB MOVIES =/= CANON. :O

XD the books are old, racist (hi, 1960s UK) and are effectively Fleming's masturbatory travelogues, but hey.

I don't trust wiki canon unless I know where it came from because half the time it's just fanboys typing out their headcanon (witness the edit war I had with the guy who wanted tiny!Frank to be fighting for a group of anti-communist guerrillas. OH MY GOD WHAT. tiny!Frank was canonically a commie, GET OVER IT.)

Yeah...they are really different support teams. I think it's partly Snake's complete lack of trust in his, too - he flirts, even opens his heart up sometimes, but he doesn't have any prospect of building a relationship with any of them (and that he does so with Otacon is therefore wonderful). Raiden's is different again - there's trust on false pretenses.

Re: Part II of TL;DR

[oudeteron.livejournal.com]

I KNOW BUT INTERTEXTUALITY. ;_;

Never even considered reading those, but sounds like they'd make for fascinating cultural studies.

I have extreme distrust of the MGS wiki! It's just that this is one instance where it happened to work for me because it tries to put the whole Vietnam thing somewhere that doesn't make it a time paradox (since it does say in Portable Ops that Python was wounded in Vietnam almost ten years before PO takes place, so gotta deal with it somehow). Anyway...anti-communist Frankie? LOL WHAT. I'm sure the editing on your end was awesome, though.

You've pretty much summed up the support teams! Overall, I'd say in both Snake and Raiden's cases, there's more detachment than in what BB has.

[otakujeannie.livejournal.com]

I warn for slash not because I find it offensive or am uncomfortable with writing it but because I have lived with and know there are still people out there who haven't gotten the memo that gay-bashing is wrong (hell there are idiots out there who still think skin color is a reason to treat others like dirt.) and it's a way to cover my ass if some kid or stick up their ass conservative (note, not all conservative people are like this but the ones on the extreme fringe are) finds my work, I have a leg to stand on (granted not much but I can at least claim an effort in my defense). It's also a habit I've had since my beginning days in fanfic writing, which was shortly after 2000 so old habits die hard. Also I tend to be a peripheral demographic in some of my fanish writings so yeah. Hell I had someone ranting about gay content in commercials on the Super Bowl this year, if writing a warning keeps those assholes away from my work and getting all offended then fine it's a small price to pay (Hell some fandoms I am in, if I had het, I'd fucking warn for that too.

I do not mean to offend of the gay or pansexual community but at the same time I am paranoid and want something to hold against the het only crowd and feel that I do need to acknowledge that some people aren't going to be comfortable with this material despite all the progress gays (and I use the term for both sexes) bisexuals and transgenders have made and in the spirit of tolerance this is a minor concussion.
I would love for the day I don't have to worry about warning for slash but unfortunately we are not at that day quite yet.

[oudeteron.livejournal.com]

I wonder if you ever notice that you're enabling those people by warning like this? I don't warn for slash because, quite simply, the argument that not being straight is somehow "warn-worthy" is irrational and bigoted. I mean, I can see your logic, BUT. Quietly pandering to the mindset that slash is wrong is not going to fix anything on the larger scale.

Basically, if someone gets so "upset" by not always seeing straight people, it's their problem, their prejudice, and not something slash writers should pander to. (It may seem like a minor thing, but it's an ingrained idea in mainstream culture that not being the majority is somehow ~upsetting, so I fight it wherever I can.) Is refusing to tolerate hate really intolerant?

[otakujeannie.livejournal.com]

I've never see it as enabling so much as avoiding so much pointless butthurt. I don't think every person who is uncomfortable seeing gays (and other non-strait people but moreso homosexuals) because it hits so close to home. Even in race, one does not suddenly become gay as some people seem to not only erroneously believe but actually fear.


Also being on the minority end of 'don't like though' attitudes before (Relgion and comedy) would make me more prone to avoid making others uncomfortable as well as being the type of personality who tries to avoid conflict, especially pointless drama by people who reason is not going to be seen on the issue.

I also see warnings less as offensive stuff and more shit you aren't going to like so don't read. I've been known to warn for things like fluff, non-cannon characters, in one case viewpoints (of a drunk and deeply embittered charater) and personally like it when I am warned that there will be femme-bashing (or non BishiMale-bashing). Maybe that's where the difference of our opinions comes from. Maybe I should cut the difference and add a don't like/ don't read to the parings considering how Serious Business shippers can be.

[oudeteron.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't fault anyone for wanting to be extra clear about the contents, but there are neutral places to put this. If you say something like "Pairing type: slash" (totally redundant if you've spelled out a pairing) or "Tags: slash; Warnings: violence", you're clearly indicating that there's no judgement being passed on the slash part. The word "warnings" has inhererently evaluative connotations (and its judgement basically says squick), and despite the practices of some archives, it's not a catch-all term to denote content.

I'd also like to point out that this isn't an isolated issue of shipping or fandom: there's the entire attitude of a culture that's used to othering non-heterosexuality to consider, and by "warning" for non-heterosexuality you support this. Your intent might not be such, but the effect is. I frankly don't understand why people cling to using such an offensive warning, when all it takes to remove this offensive message is to take the slash out of the "warning" line and put it elsewhere in the header (if it's to be pointed out at all).

[otakujeannie.livejournal.com]

Also sorry about the mistake with transgendered people, I was not too sure what the correct term was and thank you for the clarification.

[oudeteron.livejournal.com]

Thanks for taking it to heart but, again, transgender people. It's an adjective, not a noun or a verb. (If you're interested, here's an article (http://chroanagram.zxq.net/blog/?p=2196) that explains the terminology and the reasoning behind its usage very well.)

[thene]

Doesn't stating the pairing cover you for that, though?

I get where you're coming from, i mean hi i live in GA, but; internet=/=irl. Fan communities are very atomised. People gravitate to sites that provide what they want, and avoid ones that make them raeg, except for a few trolls, and there's no reasoning with trolls anyway.

I get that you're averse to conflict - speaking as an immigrant, I find your entire culture to be chokingly averse to conflict, and what that often leads to is the situation you're in now; to avoid even the possibility of a conflict, you defer to the (hypothetical) most rabidly conservative person in the room, because you're afraid of them and regard them as most likely to pick a fight with you. But, on LJ? That person is not even here. Queer fans are here and ignoring our feelings on the topic, and warning for slash out of fear, ends up prioritising fear of the totally hypothetical conflict over our very real and present wish to be respected as equals. Warning for slash to 'acknowledge' extreme conservatives is like saying they matter more to you than we do.

[thene]

(also, Oude just pointed this out - I've not had time to do stuff on mgs_f lately so hadn't noticed it myself! - I'd really prefer it if you didn't warn for slash on mgs_fanworks as it does make me uncomfortable to see myself warned for on my own comm, though obv. what you do on your own journal is entirely up to you.)

[oudeteron.livejournal.com]

But wouldn't a warning for incest be more appropriate in that case? Otherwise it's just another instance of slash and Actually Warn-worthy Things being lumped together, and there we go again.

[oudeteron.livejournal.com]

This was one of the reasons I felt obliged to rant about it, so I'm glad it makes sense. (PS: I might've told you before but awesome icon.)

[admiral]

blargh, I'm pretty sure I used to warn for slash back on ff.net, but I think I just put the usual "this story has slash, don't read it if you don't like it!" disclaimer up top or something instead of labeling it specifically under "warnings." But yeah, once I realized how stupid that was, I was like *headdesk*

Mm, I always love your MGS meta, bb. ♥ I'm not gonna lie, I didn't care for Zero too much outside of MGS3 because he didn't show up/didn't get referenced very much until MGS4 and by that point I was like "oh yeah, that guy." (I played the games chronologically, pfft.) But you've totally made me appreciate him a lot more.

(Also this is just from creeping on all the comments and my inability to comprehend the English language, but I'm curious, why isn't "transgendered people" acceptable as a descriptor? That would count as an adjective, in the vein of like, "the wounded kitten" or something, but is it because you only add "-ed" to nouns/verbs to make them adjectives, and "transgender" is already an adjective so adding "ed" would be redundant? /thinking too hard about this)

[oudeteron.livejournal.com]

If everyone had that lightbulb moment, fandom would be a better place. (Although, yeah, a "disclaimer" like that is still better than labelling it as a warning outright.)

Thanks! <3 I figure that's why he's not more popular, but I'm fascinated by all the backstory of his character that's sort of hinted at but never spelled out. And by the whole Patriots/Cipher thing. What made me care about him and go back so I could really pay attention to the BB/Zero interaction in MGS3 was Peace Walker, because aside from the "obvious" plotline of that game, the whole damn thing is like Zero's "come back" plea to BB. Even in that visceral scene with dismantling the Boss AI that wouldn't need anything besides The Boss to be important, there's a reference to this ("the lonely fox chases after the one-eyed hound"). I'm a sucker for subtext like that. Now it's established in my headcanon that Zero would've asked Kaz to talk about the different meanings of the word "Cipher" to BB, just to make him get the bloody point. XD

(About the language, I used to go by the same logic - but the problem only becomes clear when you think about it outside of what's technically doable in grammar. Using "transgender" as a verb (or what looks like an adjective derived by conjugating a verb) suggests that it's some random action performed or imposed on the person, rather than a neutral descriptor of a state. It ties in with the explanation of why it's not a noun (http://chroanagram.zxq.net/blog/?p=2196) I linked above; the problem of what the different uses imply is essentially the same.)

[admiral]

Perhaps there needs to be an informational campaign or something. (I'd like to comfort myself with that, pfft.)

Yeah, I wish we could've got to see more backstory for a lot of characters (I still pine for that WWII Cobra game nnngh). Clearly I need to beat Peace Walker, dammit. I stopped the Boss AI (er, she stopped herself?) but never did the stuff after it because I'm so lazy.

Oh yeah I definitely wouldn't use it as a noun or verb, for one it looks silly and secondly I agree it doesn't function as either one. I guess I'm just used to seeing adjectival forms as solely adjectives because I'm pretty sure I've used "transgendered" before. But you definitely bring up a good point, I'll have to keep an eye out for that now. Though now this makes me wonder about all the other LGBT terms; like why gay isn't used as noun (often) by the general public but homosexual is. Because people think "a homosexual" doesn't sound as silly as "a gay"? Dammit now I wish I could do mass public research surveys and stuff.

[oudeteron.livejournal.com]

A campaign sounds like what's needed! (Well, it's a small comfort, but better than nothing.)

Same here (damn, yes, I want a WWII game as much as I want a direct PW sequel). Also, the scene I meant with the Boss AI warning BB is right in Chapter 4. If you've been there and just didn't notice, guess I could elaborate without spoiling? XD

I suspect that's the logic for a lot of people (hey, I'd used the term myself at one point before something prompted me to take a closer look at it, and then I saw the problem). "Gay" is actually a good analogy for what the correct usage should be as long as it's kept to an adjective in itself. (Maybe there's some argument for phrases like "gays in the military" even though it sounds stupid to me too - but otherwise it's back to the problem of reducing the person to one aspect, this time their sexuality. No one says "a straight", after all, and I suppose the "scientific" terms ["a homosexual", etc.] only get used like this when someone's trying to sound authoritative and doesn't care about the implications.)

[admiral]

Don't know how you'd quite get it spread around to the ff.net people, since they seem to do it the most.

I vaguely remember something about all that, it's just been so long, pfft. If you want you can totally elaborate, I don't mind.

Baaaah, language, why so silly. But I agree, sexuality terms make a lot of sense only being adjectives that way (wait about about "lesbian"? hmmm)

[oudeteron.livejournal.com]

Yeah, me neither. It's one of the reasons I've pretty much given up on the Pit, .

If you "vaguely remember", then you might just be better off watching a vid of the scene/replaying it. I've pretty much described what happens in that moment, the difference is just that I could meta about it for hours. XD

Language politics, very subtle. (AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SOMEONE CONFLATES SEXUALITY WITH A PLACE NAME. Not sure if it makes the noun acceptable, as it would be with "a Lesbian/a person from Lesbos", but I figure that's where the usage comes from.)

[admiral]

Sometimes you find one or two quality things there, but most of the time it's not worth it.

Haha I'll probably have to. I really need to replay PO and finish PW because my memory of them is so shaky compared to the main games.

(ALL LESBIANS ARE GREEK CLEARLY)

[oudeteron.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm sure there are hidden gems in there, but the Pit as a whole just isn't worth the irritation to me. (Not to mention you have a better chance of finding obscure characters on LJ than there anyway, even though it's supposed to be a bigger archive.)

What do you mean they're not main games? :P Fine, I guess MPO could be seen as less major by some standards, but I think PW does qualify as main. Certainly more so than Rising, as that doesn't even have Kojima's direction to its name.

(XDD)

[admiral]

Yeah, which is a bummer since I used to read so much shit on there when I was younger. xD Now it's like "lol ff.net" no thanks. (What I'm always amused by is when a series has a character filter, it lists like eeeeeevery character in the entire series and I'm like "does anyone actually write those characters?")

pfft fine non-console games then. I always think of stuff on portable systems as spin-offs, aha. ohhh Rising, I still have no idea what that's supposed to be about.

[oudeteron.livejournal.com]

We grow to be old and hard to please and bitter. XD (AND YET, when I caved in to look for MGS fic there one time, I couldn't find a character option for Zadornov, or at least I think it was him. I'm sure it was a character there was no reason not to include, and yet that drop-down just didn't have them. But it did have a couple totally random passers-by, yeah.)

I'd say that is one assumption Kojima wants to make people question. XD It's about...Raiden cutting things? I dunno, I'm having trouble accepting it as a Metal Gear game as it is - not because it's different again, but lol no Kojima?

[admiral]

We're already in training to be that stereotypical old person who sits on their porch with a shotgun, yelling at kids to get off our lawn. xD (Yeaaaah, I dunno how they choose who gets a character listing, but it does seem random sometimes. Though I doubt most people posting on ff.net care about Zadornov/remember who he is, so that might explain it.)

NO KOJIMA, LET ME KEEP MY SCHEMA FOR GROUPING VIDEO GAMES, I'M TOO OLD FOR THESE SHENANIGANS. That sounds accurate so far. I think maybe if we knew what the damn plot was going to be about it'd feel more like an MGS game and not just a random hack-n-slash. I am saddened about the lack of Kojima though, how else will they make it absolutely ridiculous?

[oudeteron.livejournal.com]

Shotgun? I'll take a nice cup of tea, thank you. XD (Yeah, doesn't make my dream of finding a fic about Zadornov's many escape stunts and how he managed to pull them off likely to come true anytime soon. Although...who'd manage to forget looking for him again and again and again? Or does everyone just block out the memory.)

BUT KOJIMA IS GOD, HE DOES NOT CARE. It feels very much like a random hack'n'slash profiling itself by the MGS name right now. They cannot give us what we want without Kojima!

[admiral]

Fine, you handle snacks, I'll handle artillery. (IF YOU WROTE IT AND PUT IT ON FF.NET YOU WOULD BE FAMOUS. Or more like no one would read it. But still. Haha, maybe they do, they just don't want to remember that part of the game. xD)

WHAT A CRUEL GOD. aha, well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it goes. I kind of wish it was the story of how Raiden got from MGS2 to MGS4, but alas. that will probably never happen.